UEF Podcast / Tibetan yoga wellbeing
Magical Movements: Tibetan Yoga and the Natural State of Mind
“Love what you do, keep on learning, be playful, and follow your heart.”
A conversation with Dr. Alejandro Chaoul
By Allen Simon
Opening
Dr. Alejandro Chaoul is the owner of Tibetan Yoga Wellbeing, who has traveled across the world to teach Tibetan yoga (Tsa Lung Trul Khor) for over 30 years. His spiritual teachers are many in number, including His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, whose 91st birthday was, fittingly, celebrated just a day before I sat down with Dr. Chaoul, whom I count as one of my own spiritual teachers.
Ale, as Dr. Chaoul insists on being called, is a world traveler in more than just the geographical sense, moving between the worlds of traditional spiritual practice, the academic study of religion, and even Western medicine. He earned his PhD in religious studies at my alma mater, Rice University in Houston, Texas, where he still resides and works with cancer patients at MD Anderson alongside Lorenzo Cohen, who helms the integrative medicine program at the hospital.
Having learned much more about Ale during our conversation, it’s easy to understand why I connected with him when we first met in 2013 at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California when I was just 18 years old. He is every bit the exemplar of love, learning, and play I remember him to be, with a personal story that I found deeply relatable, and which I’m sure will resonate with anyone who has ever identified as a seeker of wisdom.
Breath 01 / Love, learn, play with the FIFA World Cup
Love, learn, play with the FIFA World Cup
Another important thing to know about Ale is that he is Argentinian by birth and upbringing. And so, strange as it may seem for a conversation with a spiritual teacher, I began by asking him about the ongoing 2026 FIFA World Cup. It was a subject fresh on Ale’s mind, as, just minutes before our conversation, he had been at his friend’s restaurant in Houston watching his Argentinian national soccer team pull off a nearly impossible comeback against Egypt in the knockout stage of the tournament.
But national pride was only at the surface of why Ale was so eager to speak about the World Cup. For him, the World Cup has long been a global event that draws out the depths of love, learning, and play that are inherent in all human beings. Play is just the most obvious feature of this sporting event that occurs every four years. But it is an event unlike any other, which brings people together at many levels, and serves as an opportunity to learn about people from unfamiliar countries.
Football as religion
I'm Argentinian, and we are crazy about soccer, or what we call football. In fact, we call it…it’s a religion. And the fans, I mean, it's just amazing. We even…a day before the game, you have what we call the banderasso, which means kind of “a big flag.” And basically, we're all with our shirts and singing all these songs. And actually, with my son in particular, this is the third World Cup that we actually got to go to games.
Learning through the world
As you said, a lot of times some people don't even know where these countries are. So Cabo Verde and their goalie: there was something interesting that before the World Cup he had 45,000 followers and now he has 17 million followers because [the world fell in love with him] and with Cabo Verde.
Breath 02 / Tibetan yoga
Breathing through the subtle body
Moving on from our discussion of the World Cup, I asked Ale to give a bit of an overview on Tibetan yoga, which he has studied, practiced, and taught for many years. Tsa Lung Trul Khor, is it is referred to in his tradition, is a contemplative spiritual practice which, like all yoga, is focused on integrating the mind, body, and spirit by manipulating breath and kinetic movements.
One of the features of Tibetan yoga that distinguishes it from other forms of yoga that may be more familiar in the West is that its movements are performed while holding one’s breath. They are also often done from a seated position.
As Ale describes it, holding the breath while performing these magical movements builds up a kind of spiritual potential energy that is released explosively in such a way that is meant to facilitate a recognition of the authentic self, which he calls the “natural state of mind,” the part of us that, deep down, knows love, learning, and play to be the path toward flourishing.
Channels, breath, magical movements
‘Tsa’ means channels, ‘Lung’ means breath, what in many other mind-body practices could be called ‘Qi’ or ‘Prana.’ And ‘Trul Khor’ literally means magical wheel or magical movements. And so, the idea of this kind of practice is that, through movements, you guide with your mind, so it is a mind-body practice. But it's not just mind, body; it's mind, subtle body. So ‘Tsa Lung’ really means kind of connecting to the subtle body, to those inner channels through which the ‘Lung,’ the breath, can circulate.
Inside out
This is really what's happening. You're using the body from inside out to awaken yourself and to this magical aspect of the movement. It's not magic as something that comes from nothing, but actually magic in the sense of special experiences, maybe spiritual experiences, that arise from these practices. And these movements are all done while you're holding the breath.
Natural state of mind
You exhale sometimes just through the nose, sometimes with sounds. So, you do it with the nose, and then these sounds like Ha! Pe! ‘Ha’ means kind of just exhalation. ‘Pe’ means this cutting—not just cutting the stale breath, but cutting all your elaborations of the mind. So, for a moment, this pe! You're in this moment of almost no thoughts; we call it ‘Hedawa’ […] So, as you kind of come back to that experience, there's a sense of ‘aha!’ Recognition of what we call your natural state of mind. So, this state of mind: no one is bringing it to you. You already were born with it, but you need to familiarize yourself with it so you recognize it. And the whole point is to stay [in it] longer and longer and longer.
Breath 03 / From existential attacks to flourishing
From existential attacks to flourishing
Ale was born into a turbulent time in Argentina’s history, conditions which deeply affected him in his youth and laid the foundation of what would become a lifelong quest for meaning-making at a deeply existential level.
Ale then went on to describe a long chain of inward and outward events that led him to discover and devote himself to the spiritual practices of Tibetan yoga. From reading Hermann Hesse’s Siddhartha to studying transcendental meditation to pursuing higher education in the United States, a series of early exposures to the spiritual traditions of the East inspired him to travel to India, specifically Dharamshala, the home of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Existential anxiety
When I started meditating, I was in high school, and I…you know, I was actually looking for something that would help me through a certain kind of—I call them existential attacks—that then I linked, actually, with what I was living in Argentina. It was a time of bombs and state repression. So, we had many of what we would call ‘desaparecidos,’ which are people that disappeared, that, you know, a car would come and pick them up […] And so, it creates this sense of anxiety, of existential anxiety. Will I be alive? And what happens when I die? Because it's not if I die.
Second gestation period
So, ‘89 was when I went first to India, and I was there for 9 months. ‘89, ‘90, so I call it sometimes my second gestation period. And, as I was looking, I met many Indian teachers, Tibetan teachers, and I really got connected to His Holiness [the 14th Dalai Lama] and to Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche. And then, as I was organizing, actually, the visit of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to Argentina, we met many people in '91 back in New York at the Madison Square Garden…interesting place to have a teaching. And right before that, this great teacher from the Bön tradition was teaching. His name was Lopon Tenzin Namdak. And Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche asked me to meet him. And this is the teacher that then passed away last year, and he was 100 years old. And he became really crucial for me, and when I went to Nepal to meet Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche for a retreat, I went to Lopon's monastery, and he asked me to stay there.
Breath 04 / Ha! Pe!
Ha! Pe! Spiritual clarity
Ale describes how his time at Lopon Tenzin Namdak’s monastery became a major turning point for him and his spiritual practice, a key breakthrough moment in his quest toward discovering and reconnecting with his authentic self and natural state of mind. This period of time, in turn, changed the course of his life, solidifying his path as not just a practitioner but as a globe-trotting teacher dedicated to helping others flourish and live consciously.
Open and clear space
It changed my practice. There was something that I noticed in my practice that was very… clear. Every time, every…every movement—ha! pe!—It was such a clearing experience, such a…open and clear space and clarity. I mean, it was…amazing […] And so that was back in '95. And yeah, ever since then, I kept on teaching, and then [Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche] asked me to teach in Mexico, and in Europe, and in different parts of the States, and it really became kind of both my main practice and something that I would teach, and then as I was at Rice University here in Houston, I did my PhD. And my dissertation was on these practices.
Breath 05 / Playful seriousness
Playful-seriousness
Though Ale’s journey was rooted in deeply serious concerns and goals, the fulfillment of which demanded a high degree of discipline, there was always a softer side to all of this. As he explained, it was the playfulness of the Tibetans that made him fall in love with them and their particular brand of spiritual teachings and practices.
This spirit of playfulness does not exist simply in spite of the more serious dimensions of the Tibetan spiritual life, but rather as a necessary, complementary opposite—with seriousness and playfulness co-existing as two ends of the same spectrum, as Ale at one point put it.
Humans trying our best
[There are] kind of mischievous things that they do, but I always found the Tibetans very, very playful. Like, for example, in the monastery of my first teacher, Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche. You know, they would ask me things like, you know, in a ritual, carry a cup which was filled to the brim with an offering, right? Usually wine. And so, when you carry it, you carry it walking backwards because you are still facing the altar. So, you're walking backwards to the door, and I'm carrying it, and of course, it starts dropping, right? And so, you know, coming from Argentina, I would think, ‘oh, this is a sin, right? I'm going to go straight to hell.’ And instead, their response…they were cracking up. And there was nothing of, ‘oh, you're doing it bad.’ I mean, it was, like, it's part of it. We're all humans, we're trying our best here.
A good heart
And this aspect of playfulness, you know, you see it in His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His laughter, you know? The first time I met him in a public teaching, I remember that the last person who asked a question said, ‘anything that you have to tell me, His Holiness?’ And he laughed. He said, ‘not really, no.’ And then he turned and became, you know, he comes kind of from play to seriousness: ‘Yes! A good heart is the best religion.’ Which, again, might sound, ‘really?’ When it's said in that way, it's such a strong teaching. Right? And then, again, okay, I remember when I came to Argentina, one of the first Tibetan teachers I met there was Tsoknyi Rinpoche, and he was my age, which at that time, we were in our 20s. And we would play football together—meaning soccer, of course. And then with his assistant, Tashi. And then, when he would sit on the throne…you know, this straight teaching, right? And so, this capacity of going from real seriousness to play is really important.
Breath 06 / Integrating love, learn, and play
Integrating love, learn, and play
The love, learn, play mindset is a framework for flourishing that cannot exist in abstraction: it has to be lived out in all dimensions of life. Loving is not just something to be done with a romantic partner; learning is not confined to classrooms or books; and playing doesn’t just occur on the soccer field. This is a fact that Ale reminds us is essential to the spiritual life as well.
Ale points out that playfulness, in particular, helps us to zoom out and see our lives from a clearer, more authentic perspective, beyond the trappings of false narratives and means-ends inversion. This is something that is clear to Ale when he works with cancer patients, who embody a deep awareness of the transient nature of life, but it is an attitude and sense of realism that he thinks we would all do well to embody. Understanding that we are not the permanent owners of our bodies or any other material objects can be a sobering revelation, but it can also be an invitation to play on the deepest levels possible.
Twenty-two hours left
But even if we practice…I don't know, an hour a day, two hours a day, we still have 22 hours left, right? So what are we doing? How do we integrate? Is there any translation there? Is there something that you connect to that you bring into it? And that's really what's really important. So if we think of love, learn, and play, right? This Love, this connection of open-heartedness, right? ‘A good heart is the best religion.’ And this Learn of always being open to learning. You're always a student of life. You're not just…even if you're a teacher, even if you're, you know…His Holiness the Dalai Lama starts a teaching, and he does three prostrations, right? I mean, there's always openness to learn. And then there's playfulness.
The Airbnb of the body
In terms of this [body], as my teacher would say, this Airbnb, you know, you have to leave it. And so, it's rented. Right? And at some point you have to leave it, and you move on. Now, some people believe this ‘move on,’ reincarnation, and some don't. But, you know, even if you don't…if you're able to understand that we all are in this journey, we're using this [body]. There's a sense of playfulness. And part of the play is: how do you use this body, this breath, this mind—which sometimes we call the three doors—to come into that natural state of mind? So, whether you call it, you know, I think that even this word ‘Khor,’ movement, right? You know, you could say there's playfulness, right? This magical movement, this Trul Khor. There is a sense of playfulness in it. But I think it also brings it to playfulness in life. I think it's really important to flourishing.
Breath 07 / The three poisons
The three poisons: obstacles to flourishing
In Tibetan Buddhism, Ale explains, the three main obstacles to flourishing, also known as “the three poisons” are attachment, aversion, and ignorance. Ignorance is what Ale singles out as essentially the loose thread to start with: as he points out, the uncertainty we feel in ignorance can be the impetus we need to embrace the pursuit of learning that can help us clear away some of the other cobwebs.
Capacity to flourish
These are the three main obstacles also that go all the way in Tibetan medicine. So, all the illnesses arise from that ignorance, that it's—kind of before even confusion, anger, and attachment—the ignorance of not realizing that you have the full capacity to become enlightened. Natural state of mind. You…whether you are a human of any race, whether you are an animal, whether you are any sentient being. And so, that's really important to know that, and because of that, you have that capacity to flourish.
Breath 08 / We already have it
The great perfection of flourishing
Flourishing is inherent in all of us. It, much like the Buddhist concept of enlightenment, is something that, in a sense, we all already have: we are born with it and simply need to clear out certain obstacles in order to realize it. Whether your journey toward flourishing begins by embracing more love, learning, or play, ultimately the three are interconnected, synergistic, and mutually reinforcing.
Throughout my conversation with Ale, play consistently stood out as the paramount trait of Tibetan Buddhists, all the way down from His Holiness the Dalai Lama to the humblest, most novice students. For Ale, it seems as though play is what helps us see more expansively, beyond the limitations of the false narratives and social scripts we inherit as adults.
Open your wings
There's this metaphor in the Dzogchen, which is a tradition in Buddhism and Bön, which is called the Great Completeness, the Great Perfection, that says that we are born like garudas. Garudas are this mythical bird that, as it hatches from the egg, it knows how to fly. It just needs to perfect it. We all…we have that capacity. So, we just need to perfect it. But a lot of times, all the way from our parents, to friends, to bosses, to…They want to keep us kind of in little cages because it's safer. But the opportunity to open your wings or fly, I think it's crucial. And I felt many times that I had to do it. And it's more risky, yes. But it's also that…playful. It's both the love, the learn, and the play because there's the love for life…for flourishing […] So, you know, fly. Dream. Love what you do, keep on learning, be playful, you know, and follow…Follow your heart, as I guess most of our grandmothers would tell us.
If you are interested in absorbing more of the knowledge, wisdom, and playfulness that Ale emanates, we invite you to watch the full podcast episode, and also to visit Ale’s many online platforms on LinkedIn, social media, and alechaoul.com. From there, you can access his many free resources and sign up for a variety of online or in-person classes.