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3 Lessons on how to Flourish as a Family
“Love is time, and if he sacrificed time with his family for the sake of material pursuits he would be falling prey to a phenomenon we at UEF call means-ends inversion.”
An interview with Daniel and Natalie Gundersen

Three lessons
In a world rife with divorces, unhappy marriages, and struggling families there seems to be some wisdom in speaking to those who have found a way to truly flourish, to love, learn, and play their way into bliss. I recently flew into Utah to speak with my old friend Daniel Gundersen and his wife Natalie. As I watched them laugh till their bellies ached, as I saw their children engage in learning, be loving, and play the most imaginative games it all of a sudden clicked that I know one of those families that has found transcendent joy through LLP. Daniel Gundersen is a Chemical Engineer with an MBA and his wife Natalie Gundersen is a Dietician. They live nestled between the awe inspiring mountains of Provo, Utah and practice their Latter Day Saint faith with replenished delight each day.
We often think that flourishing relates uniquely to acquiring power and money, to the fabled stories of tremendous material success. But it doesn’t. Daniel had almost fallen into the trap of believing that having a multi million dollar cabin in the mountains was the measure of whether his life can be validated, or whether he had achieved an optimal state of existence. As he started down a path that might lead him to such wealth, he noticed his daughter looking through the window each night when he’d come home from work, waiting for him after a day of missing him, he noticed his ability to be present diminishing and he had an epiphany. Love is time, and if he sacrificed time with his family for the sake of material pursuits he would be falling prey to a phenomenon we at UEF call means-ends inversion. He would be trading the end goal (to love, learn, and play with his family) for a means to make that end goal easier (to make money). This radical realization rescued him from a path of disappointment. To flourish as much as the Gundersen’s seems impossible to some in this modern world. But it is not impossible, it just requires the right mindset and a bold willingness to challenge the false narratives that we have been taught since our childhood. It may require a revolutionary spirit to do this, but the reward seems worth it. Here are three lessons I’ve learned about how to flourish from the magical joy of the Gundersen family.
Lesson #1
Love requires Time
It may seem a simple thought, but where we put our time, and to whom we give it, is a measure of how loving we are able to be with those who matter most to us. Daniel Gundersen learned this lesson through an experience in which he initially would suffer looking at million dollar cabins in the mountains before, via learning from the mistakes of others, he realized that what it takes to get those cabins can be a prison. If you work so much that you don’t make time for your family, Daniel and Natalie taught me, then you have traded the real dream for the image of a dream. While Daniel was soaring through his MBA program at BYU Provo, being decorated with awards for his academic achievements, he also attended a talk in which he was reminded that if you don’t make time for those you love now, you may never get a chance to participate in the mutual love they offer you. As he put it:
Conversation
Christophe Porot
How does love express itself in your home and in your life, and how has it influenced your path through life?
Daniel Gundersen
Yes, when I think of love, I think of another four-letter word, and that is T-I-M-E time. And, you know, I… I was once… I guess I'll start by giving, a story here, but I was at a conference, and Jesse Itzler, a billionaire, was speaking to us, but he, he really kind of put some of this in perspective for me, and kind of gave that speech that it's TIME time, and he'd said, you know, you never sacrifice this for this. And, you know, being your ambition, your money, your drive for what you already have, and it's your family, your relationships that you already have. And so, often I will mention our kids throughout this a bit, but, we express love a lot by spending time with our kids, and just, mentoring, guiding. It's a love of… a labor of love, if you will, to do bedtime routine every night, to read those stories, to make sure those teeth are brushed. There was a whole phase, my daughter's gotten tired of my stories anymore, I have to read them, but I made up stories for a whole… about a year straight of just, we were in a castle. I was the king, she was the princess, we'd go on adventures into the mountains, she'd ad-lib hers in, but that's… that's love, and that bond is there, just to see that brightness in her eyes, and to… to experience stuff together.
What Daniel learned through being attentive to the words of wisdom from someone with more experience was that he had to unlearn his theory of what it meant to flourish. He had to unlearn the notion that the cabin in the mountains was more important then time with his family. And I’ve never seen someone for whom a lesson has contributed more positively to flourishing in their life.
Love requires Time
Lesson #2
Let your Children teach you how to Play
The world renowned scholar Johan Huizinga, in his book on play (Homo Ludens), said “To understand poetry we must be capable of donning the child's soul like a magic cloak and of forsaking man's wisdom for the child's.” And he extended this wisdom far beyond poetry, but the basic message is that their is an innate wisdom in the longings of the child. Their powerful commitment to play is something that we can learn from, not something we must discourage. As adults we move through life sometimes forgetting how to play. So, if you are in a position where you have children, remember that the learning is not asymmetrical. Yes, there are practical lessons that parents can teach children, but I learned through talking with the Gundersen’s that there are some profound lessons that children can teach their parents, and that its important for the child’s development that you give them a chance to be the teacher. The way the Gundersen’s do this is through enabling their children to lead highly imaginative, invented games like a game they call “cuz.”
Basically, the Gundersen children love and sometimes miss their cousins so Daniel and Natalie will play the role of being a cousin. They can be a cousin who is a doctor, or an engineer, a pilot or anything else but what matters is that they pretend to be cousins and that it is in fact the children who choose how to play the game– for once, the child invites the adult into their world rather than the other way around. As they put it:
Conversation
Daniel and Natalie
I mean, truly, I mean, kids Play much better than adults, of course.So a lot of it is letting them lead the way. I… when they were… I mean, they're still fairly young, but, they're getting to a point where it's all about, like, imaginative play, and to be honest, as an adult, I don't love the lack of structure of that sometimes, but. I just… I'm trying to embrace it, because, it's what they love, at this time. But, yeah, a lot of it is just, like engaging, asking questions, listening, trying to mirror what they're doing, to be honest. Like, I feel like there's a lot we can learn from kids about play.
Christophe Porot
Absolutely.
Daniel and Natalie
One of the games that gets played every single day at our house is called Cuz. And so… We're cousins. We're cousins, so my daughter loves to play their cousins. Well, when they're not here, or when we're not there, she wants us to pretend to be a cuz, you know? (There are) variations that she brings in, like some days it's normal cuz, some days it's Christmas cuz, some days, you know, so we pretend Santa Claus comes and delivers presents, and some days it's doctor cuz, you know, and so one of us is a patient, and so we're always these cuz. I don't know, but there's those versions, and I got chastised the other day, multiple times, like, Dad, you play this as good as mom does. And I was like, oh, well, how should I do it better? And then, later on in the afternoon, she says, Dad, you're not playing it properly, you know, and so I had to make sure I towed the line and figured out exactly what I should be doing in this imaginative game.
You see, where children must constantly learn about the world from adults, it is important for the adult to learn about flourishing from the child. When you think about, as we often discuss at UEF, when a child is clothed, fed, and sheltered they often naturally just love, learn, and play. Sure, you might say, they don’t have taxes and bills to worry about but that does nothing to undermine the fact that even handling taxes and bills gets easier when we are living a life through the LLP mindset. By letting the children lead the way in play, the Gundersen’s are not only offering the child a respite from a life of being mentored, they themselves (Daniel and Natalie) are being mentored into a better life.
Let your Children teach you how to Play
Lesson #3
You already know what you care about in life, just pay attention
In a conversation anchored in the practical realities of flourishing through a life of love, learn, and play we touched upon an abstract moment when Daniel and Natalie expressed how they came to realize what they valued most deeply. It wasn’t that they thought reflectively and imposed upon the world a new value system, as a philosopher like Jean Paul Sartre might suggest. Instead, they paid attention to their own inner longings, to the things they had set up around themselves as reflective of what they desired to do. Listening to your own self, in other words, may be a more fruitful path to understanding how to flourish then trying to invent a whole new way of being. There is a natural part of you that longs to love, learn, and play. Just look around you and you will see it. In our conversation they expressed this very clearly:
Conversation
Daniel and Natalie Gundersen
Yeah, for me, yes, like you said, I think a lot of things that we… we seek out in life, you know, we're all on this… this search for… for what is my career, what is… what do I enjoy doing and everything, and I think a lot of the time, it's subconscious. You know, it's already there or innate within us. And, you know, it was at that moment where I was trying for a period of 6 months where I was like, what am I really chasing? What am I really wanting? That epiphany happened, that's like, I've already been making these choices, you know? Like, my subconscious already knew I wanted all this, and it was just like this, wow, like, I'm figuring it out, you know? Like, I'm figuring out what I like, not so much just putting this goal in front of me that I'm gonna go chase this thing. It's… it's this, you know, just… this innate drive to… to figure that out. And… and similarly with learning, you know, I… I ended up in the… the energy industry. Well, when I think back through going through this whole process as well. I realized that being at the baseball field as a young boy; we were spinning the merry-go-round around, and… I don't know, a lot of the other kids might be thinking, hop on, have fun, and I was doing that, but I also was thinking, like.I mean, I was 5 years old at the time, thinking, I wonder if I could generate electricity by spinning this, you know? Like, I wonder if this could be a power production means. And so, that is one more thing, it's like, it's kind of innate. Like, I've always been interested in energy and… and chemistry. All this stuff, and it was just a matter of me discovering it.
The most important elements of Daniel’s life, from realizing how much he longed to play with his children to pursuing a rewarding professional path, came simply from paying attention. I remember a mentor of mine talking about how to choose your goals. He told me that if you want to know what to do with your life, ask yourself this: “What do you do when you are not forced to be doing anything in particular?” In other words, what comes naturally to you? If you are free to choose whatever you want, what do you inherently choose? I believe this to be one of the most instructive lessons. For Daniel, he chose to explore how to generate electricity and power, and to play more. For me, I realized that when no one was forcing me to do anything in particular I simply gravitated to an abstract form of love, learning, and play insofar as I would engage deep philosophical questions with the LLP mindset. I would play with ideas, learn about them, and absolutely love the process.
You already know what you care about in life, just pay attention
It may seem that flourishing is a distant horizon, that we can never know how to live a good life. That is wrong. Listen to your inner longings, learn from children, and emulate the lifestyle of those who have found profound happiness in this lifetime. If you do so, as I have done with the Gundersen’s, you may just discover that to flourish is to love, learn, and play.
Full conversation with Daniel and Natalie Gundersen
